In this episode, we talk to Karan Patel, Industrial Designer and co-founder of Meshined Design, about what it takes to put a great product out there.
Check out The Ugly Indian here. They are really making some waves!
Angie: Hi! This is Design Lota, the podcast where we talk about life as Indian Designers.
Sushi: I’m Sushi
Angie: And I’m Angie
Sushi: In our last episode, we talked about design tools, tangible and intangible.
Angie: Also one of more chirpy episodes, so you might want to take a listen if you want to hear that side of us. I’m excited for today’s episode too for two reasons – 1. we’re talking about Product Design – the traditional product design – which is of course Industrial Design. 2. I enjoy designpreneur stories – designers starting their own businesses.
Sushi: Yeah me too! I caught up with Karan Patel, an Industrial Design Entrepreneur. He is the cofounder of MeShined Design Consultancy and they recently launched their own line of bags.
Sushi: Hi Karan, welcome to Design Lota. We’re so excited to have you on our podcast! What are you upto these days?
Karan: Hi Sushmita, thank you so much for having me on Design Lota. I have been busy in the past few months creating a whole range of products for my company’s in house brand ‘smthn’. We plan to launch them with back to back crowdfunding campaigns.
Sushi: Tell us your story. How did you end up becoming a designer?
Karan: Halfway through engineering I realised being an engineer in the world out there wasn’t the same as what was in my head. This was also when I came across the profession of an ‘industrial designer’ which seemed to be the realm that I wanted to work and be part of. After I completed engineering I applied to various design institutes and got closer to being an industrial designer.
Sushi: So would you say that you’re now both an engineer and a designer? How has being an engineer fed into your design practice? Or do you think it hasn’t?
Karan: I would say yes, and I do thoroughly enjoy shuffling between both roles.
Sushi: After graduating from design school, you took your diploma project forward and started a company…can you tell us about your project and how this happened?
Karan: My diploma project was a simple paddy dehusking machine. This was a miniaturised rice mill for a farmer to be able to husk his own paddy within his own field or house. This was aimed at organic farmers who have a difficult time dehusking their paddly because industrial rice mills demand a larger quantity to be able to process, and the farmers also lose out on the certification of being organic.
When I graduated in 2013, I took this project up with a startup in Bangalore, and this was also the year that so called “startup” fever was on the rise in the agri sector. The project was picked up by one such company, which was into creating simple, effective & productive interventions for the typical Indian farmer. I also served for a year in that company as the head of innovation. I later helped them create a sugarcane planter as well which helps quicken the process of planting sugarcane with a set row spacing and lesser labour requirement compared to existing practices.
When I was part of this company, I felt there was a lot more to do out there than design for a particular domain. There is a lot more to learn when you design for electronics or design for furniture, and you can apply every learning that you have to a completely new range of products that you wouldn’t have thought of.
I also had a very initial taste of entrepreneurship when I was a part of this start-up. So the next obvious choice was to start my own practice, and my friend from Engineering Devraj, who also followed a similar path as mine, became my partner and we started Meshined Design.
Sushi: So from what I understand, you do a lot of client products, but you also launch your own products. Can you talk about how your company balances products and services? How are they different, how does the process differ etc.
Karan: We have been designing our own products only for a year now, and we’ve been into services for almost four years. I would say the process for both is almost the same, except the person who designs the brief for products we design, happens to be us!
When it comes to balancing what we take up more, it’s really random. India is still developing its sensitivity towards design. Not everyone would require design services over the period of an entire year. So whenever we find free time from design services we spend that time developing our in-house products. We also create prototypes and keep them handy to show it to a manufacturer or get inputs from a prospective investor.
Maybe there is more creative freedom when we design our own product but also, turns the table around, because now we realise why a client has a set of constraints for us, particularly monetary ones.
Sushi: Now you are your own client, and you have all these expectations you have to meet for yourself!
Karan: Also how you manage your resources in terms of time or money, or the finer details. What kind of quality is someone (the end user) expecting?
Sushi: Is there something in your process or your values that :you believe sets Meshined apart from other design consultancies?
Karan: Something I think that differentiates us from the rest-not that I know of, or have interacted with too many similar design consultancies- what sets us apart is that we design for a set context. We don’t get into designing the product as soon as we receive the brief, but we take the initiative and redefine the brief, and this is what sets the context for design, that is what sets the constraints that we would be designing within. It might seem trivial when you get to the end of it, but setting these constraints is a very important in the process of product design.
Let me give an example. Say you’re designing a smart-watch and you decide at the very beginning that the feature it needs to have, is for the wearer to be able to talk to another person. This already gives you the context that there needs to be a GSM module. There needs to be a speaker, there needs to be a mic. These are physical entities which take up a certain amount of space. And you already know of that interaction- so you design for that interaction. So it’s important to create this context at the very beginning. It just eases out the process later on.
Sushi: Rather than just loading the product with features…
Karan: Yes. And more importantly, its to get to the why of the product. When the intent is clear, something really magical happens with it.
Sushi: As a product designer, one needs to constantly think about how to create for the masses, how to keep it economical without compromising on quality. What are some ways in which this can be done more intentionally?
Karan: Being in India, the meaning of “mass market” is a little skewed in comparison of the rest of the world. A niche product too is a significant market here, courtesy the population that spreads across such wide variety to socio-economic strata. Irrespective of which slice of the market one decides to create the product for, the words economical and quality are a perception. There is probably a set standard in manufacturing for what precision means- where you can achieve closer and closer to a certain tolerance level. But when you have to stitch an apparel, what really is the quality of a stitch? There is no set way to define this, and it comes down to the economics of the material and the time you spend creating each piece.
The audience is perhaps willing to pay a certain price for a certain set of features, or a certain quality they feel they are okay with. Again when I use the term quality, it is what you and I as designers would define, or what the company making it would define. There is no manual for it. So once you know the price allotted for the product, you can set the quality.
Even the project we design inhouse, we do have an idea about the kind of audience we want to cater to, and we create the product and sample, and go to the manufacturer. This would give us a better idea about the pricing, as you can now see all the various costs that need to be included, for the sustenance of the company and other factors. If we realise that we have exceeded the budget that the audience can pay for, that would really be a failure on the part of us designers. Neither the customer who cannot pay more, not the manufacturer who cannot achieve that quality at a lesser rate.
Sushi: I’ve read your blog, and something you have talked about is the importance of prototyping, and how the intention of a prototype is often misunderstood by clients and designers alike. Can you briefly touch upon this?
Karan: The education system that we have, doesn’t promote the act of “making”, although this sure is changing. Even as engineers or designers, the curriculum we have doesn’t give us the opportunity, nor are we encouraged to create something that is a physical, working representation of your idea. This lingers on in your professional career and you don’t really realise the importance of having that physical prototype or that working model with you, and when it comes to creating this prototype for clients, its misunderstood that paying a good amount of money would even get it close to being a production ready prototype. A prototype is as good as the time and money you spend on it. If you want a certain profile to be perfectly represented in your prototype which is presented to a client, you need to spend that kind of money to get it right. Every prototype has its own purpose, for example a designer might create a simple paper mockup just to understand the scale of the product, or the dynamics of how you would hold it or place it on a table. A company would have the requirement of showcasing this to the investor, or carry out a feedback study, or have it placed in a focus group. Something I have learned from personal experience is that, whoever it may be – a client or a fellow designer or an end customer- what you showcase to them is what they truly believe is the best that a product can be. It becomes hard for them to imagine that there can be a step beyond this. Prototyping is quite dicey in that sense and we need to set the requirements in place first and then create.
Sushi: Right! Do you want to talk more about making and the importance of hand-on skills, and maybe go into detail on how we can be more hands-on as designers?
Karan: Since we were in school, we would study the working of a particular machine or mechanism. We were not really be introduced to it physically, but just given arbitrary examples of how its done out there – like this is how a clock works – but no one ever opens one out for you and shows you what exactly is happening inside, and tells you that this is the kind of effort you need to put in to achieve it. This is something that even happens in design schools and engineering colleges. You don’t really get the opportunity of encouragement to make something of your own. You are either tied up in classes, which means your schedule is blocked for a good amount of time, something you want to do outside of this, you don’t have the infrastructure for it, or it is too expensive for yo as a student to carry out.
If I wanted to make a set of gears, for example, and my college had nothing to do with it, and didn’t want to participate in this creation of mine, I really wouldn’t have the resources to make it. There would need to be a machine to grind out the teeth, and you need to source your own material, and no one would be willing to give you just a few hundred millimeters of metal, unless you promise to buy in bulk.
So the whole system isn’t tied together for this act of making, although there have been a few changes of late, with the maker movement coming around, and a lot of makerspaces cropping up here and there.
Sushi: So do you also make use of these makerspaces to create prototypes? Or do you have a state of the art workshop in your office?
Karan: Its not financially feasible for a consultancy like ours to have our own setup for prototyping. Through the last few projects we identified people who have their own set of skills and can help in prototyping. And I say it’s not feasible, only because of the sheer variety of materials work with – from fabric to wood to metal and plastic. All of them have their own processes of prototyping. And of course, the process of manufacturing would be completely different as well.
Sushi: What are some of the things you do for original design inspiration, in this day and age when we are digitally bombarded with images of design and objects?
Karan: Like I said earlier, something that lingers on in professional life is how, we as designers tend to stay more visual, rather than physical. A visual input will always create a visual memory. As industrial designers it becomes important to have something beyond a visual data bank. You also need to have a tactile data bank to understand how cold metal can feel in winter, and how warm it can get in the summer of gujarat to how it ages. This helps you think end to end, about not just how a product looks, but also how it feels when you touch it.
Sushi: So do you think as a design community, not just as industrial designers, the focus has become very much on the visuals, but we don’t pay as much attention to the tactile or other senses such as smell or sound. Do you feel like visuals get the maximum weightage when it comes to designing something?
Karan: Yes, in the current scenario, the visual of a product is surely what takes the most attention for a designer or company, and I would say that very few products out there are complete in terms of sensory feedback. You rarely get to appreciate or acknowledge a product through all your senses. Perhaps it’s a reflection of where we are headed towards in terms of how technologies are dictating the products of today. If everything is becoming digital, and one of the easiest ways for a digital interaction to happen, is to be visual, that of course would take up the most prominence in what we create.
Sushi: We’re at a time when the physical is heavily induced with the digital and it seems like this trend is set to grow. Everything from cars or watches to pillows are being made “smart”. How does a designer who has been making something purely physical transition into this? Should they even transition into it?
Karan: No doubt the world is transitioning to be digital and smart. This is also why I believe that the smart products of today won’t exist in the near future. Maybe you would just have a “smart space” without real products around you. Having said that, there will always be products that need to be designed – either physical or digital. The transition for the designer is a personal choice. There is always be products to be designed – physical and digital. What the designers want to pursue will completely be up themselves.
Personally I get a sense that most of the smart products are over engineered and are trying to intervene as solutions at a very low level. I would say, they are at the dawn of product innovation, where the company just got its hands on a technology, and are trying to express what it can be out in the world as meaningful products. These products aren’t really meaningful in the complete sense, but are products nonetheless.
Sushi: Companies come up with features, and a lot of exploring still needs to be done about how these features can be used.
Karan: Right. These smart products are not really designed or made in a holistic way, and are only created so that they can be the heroes or flag bearers of the technology that they represent. They’re not at a level where it becomes as obvious as a chair or a T.V.
It will perhaps take a good amount of time before they evolve and progress and become the ultimate choice for people. For everything that is out there, there’s always going to be two ways to it – opinions, likes, dislikes are more subjective. This is just my personal take on what smart products are today. Its more of a feature than a product in itself.
Sushi: In this age of Pinterest and Instagram, trends get around really fast, and are also evolving at a crazy pace. Do you think ‘trends’ is something that industrial designers should concern themselves with?
Karan: I personally am not, and even Meshined Design for that matter, doesn’t believe in designing for a particular trend. I believe as designers it is our duty to push limits of the design, technology, manufacturing or even behavioural change. So trends don’t take the prominence in our process. but I feel its worth the effort when you try and go beyond what design can achieve. Trends are momentary and mostly the remnants of the design intent for a particular context. For example the pocket watch pocket on denims still exist, but nowadays people use it to keep coins or pen drives. But no one calls it a pen drive pocket. If it was intended to be a pen drive pocket, it would be designed differently to suit that function.
Sushi: Trends could also mean lifestyle trends…for instance its become a trend to fill your house from floor to ceiling with plants. Which paves the way for opportunities to design pots and plant-holding things.
Karan: When you use the word “trend” I somehow associate it with a fad…
Sushi: Again, this is a fad because, I’ve seen a lot of people try to do that, but they weren’t really successful, because at the end of the day, the intention was not to look after the plant, but to post pictures of it on Instagram and feel happy about it.
Karan: Unfortunately, this is the scenario today, but I feel it is unfair to design a product for a particular trend, only because the design intent becomes dishonest, To use the example you gave, about filling your house with plants, at the end of it, you didn’t live up to your expectations of being able to carry it out, perhaps the system could have been design better to suit todays lifestyle, where you do not have the time to water your plants, or you go out on a holiday for a week and plants still need to be taken care of, and no one has taken that into account while designing for this particular trend, and they missed out on it. If it is going to be just for show, then it will end up being just for show. But if it means more than that, it will surely need that much effort, time and finesse to create it as well.
Sushi: Yeah, this again goes back to how it becomes more visual, than the inherent design of the product. So instead of trends informing the design, maybe trends could inform the way we style products?
Karan: Even the word styling is more leaning towards how one personalises the context rather than design for the context. If I were to style my house it would be completely different from how my mother would style her house. But if I were to design a house, one for me and one for my mother, it would not be too different. What I’m trying to put across is there are certain functional needs that need to be met, which would be the same for the majority of people. If the audience is outside that majority, then of course you have to design for that group…
Sushi: I find that people are often confused about what a designer really does. Often you have clients approaching you saying they need something designed, but they are only talking about aesthetics. They have all this stuff in place, and they just want you to put a box around it. I’m sure you have experienced that.
Karan: Yes, I have. I would say that aesthetics is surely under the purview of design, but is not the only thing that is under the purview of design. Design is a good mix of logic and emotion, and aesthetics put the joy in using the product. This is something I even heard James Dyson say in one of his interviews- that if you’ve ever experienced using a purely functional product, you do recall it much better than a really good looking product that did not properly perform what it was supposed to do. And that by itself is a statement or witness about what design really stands for.
Sushi: So this also means designers need to get out of their offices, and physically go out there and explore the 3D implications of what they design. Would you like to talk about testing out your design and how you do that at Meshined?
Karan: I’ve seen a lot of designers create products, when they work as consultants, or even within companies, and not really follow up on how it has performed in the true conditions that really test the product. It might have been designed for certain constraints but there are very few who would go back and check the performance. Of course the responsibilities also lie with the other stakeholders who created the product but, the soul of the product was created by the designer. I would take it upon myself as a designer to know how the product has done out there.
At Meshined we haven’t had the opportunity to do that as much as we would like, primarily because the companies we design for often incorporate only parts of our design. Its a decision they take, and we are left off at a stage where we don’t have a say in what happens to the future of the product we design. Of course in the products we design in house, we have paid good attention to what people have told us. It is to ask questions in the right way, not necessarily just to ask the right questions. We have gotten a good amount of feedback from the last product we had launched, and these insights were incorporated in the new product.
We took a whole year to redesign and recreate the product, and I feel like we won’t be giving a large scope for complaints this time; although sometimes the products are used outside of the constraints that you design them for, and theres not much you can do. I feel you see this happen the most in India where you might misuse a knife to scrape out coconut, although you know thats not the right tool for it, and at the end the knife would become bent. In some ways, this is also a cause for innovation, where you make the best use of things you have around you.
Sushi: Interestingly you also mentioned about the responsibility of the designer. What about times when you get into a contract with a client to design something, and then it turns into something questionable, like planned obsolescence?
Karan: I would say it depends on the individual and what they are trying to ultimately do. A lot of times, if you have financial constraints you would end up doing what the client wants you to do, only because you need the pay check at the end of the month. It’s like Maslov’s pyramid. If the bottom of the pyramid has been taken care of for the designer, that is when you break down walls, and have a freehand – and even if you don’t have a free hand, you would fight for it and make things happen.
As a designer – and this is what I would say is lacking in the design profession in India – is that we don’t really stand for what we really want to do, and that puts out a picture that we are not really concerned or invested in the task at hand.
Sushi: SO we need to be more assertive when it comes to putting our foot down and saying this doesn’t work…
Karan: So what happens is when a designer does that, they may not have an appropriate reason, or even communicate correctly, why they feel that way. So it seems off for the person on the other side. but if you have a strong reason for what you think is right, and communicate why they need to be the other way, that is when the client gets your point of view and they are able to walk the distance with you.
Sushi: This is a challenge because things aren’t always black and white, and often it isa matter of taste or preference.
Karan: True. It really comes down to all the stakeholders who take the decision. A person with an expertise needs to lead that decision. Of course when it comes to design, the designer has a larger say, but this doesn’t mean he should not participate in the decisions taken by the engineering team or the business team.
Sushi: Designers need a seat at the table!
Karan: Of course! Something I would really love to see is more design-led companies, although a lot of companies claim to be design-led, in terms of their philosophy, but not many of them are led by designers.
Sushi: Which is why its really cool that you guys at Meshined are taking part in this process or not just designing, but putting out the product from start to finish. And not just the concept, but also taking on the challenge of having the product manufactured. So I think it gives you leverage. It puts you in a place where you get to make these decisions.
Karan: I would say thats always been the dream, where you are so closely involved with the product that you literally see it grow and go out there and see it in the hands of the user as well.
Sushi: This whole process sounds pretty expensive…how does a start-up manage to carry this out without a huge initial investment?
Karan: This is the upside of crowdfunding, where you need not have a stock of thousand products to give out to thousand people, but you need to have that one product prototype or sample, which you can show to a thousand people or more, and tell them how great it would be if this came out to the world. They support you in your journey and pay upfront, so you can collect the amount you envision or need to create the product, and once you hit the goal, you receive the funds, and that is when you can start manufacturing it, and then you eventually ship it out to your backers.
We launched our in-house product and brand Smthn through crowdfunding. We had a very unexpected and overwhelming response. It was great to see how the product was appreciated and acknowledged. The whole journey was very exciting, right from working on the idea to even photographing the small details of the bag, to interacting with the manufacturer to discuss the probable hurdles, to actually encountering hurdles that you never thought you would face. And then finally shipping out the product. So it was a roller coaster journey, but a really great experience all in all.
Sushi: What were some of those hurdles that you faced…did you learn something surprising?
Karan: Crowdfunding is relatively new in India and a handful of people truly understand the whole intention behind which a product is chosen to be crowdfunded. It was hard to put across the idea of crowdfunding initially to our prospective backers. Most people thought of it as any other e-commerce order, and thought that they would receive the product in a week’s time.
Sushi: Did you have a lot of angry customers demanding their products at the end of it?
Karan: No one was really angry about this misunderstanding, and once we explained it to them, they were quite open and appreciative of the effort we had put in to create the product. Just telling people that they were supporting our dream, made a lot of difference to the conversation we had.
Sushi: Speaking of dreams, in India and other developing countries where there seem to be countless ‘gaps’ and hence opportunities for designers. But often, there is no clear cut path to get there, and it often seems to be cordoned off with red tape. What are some of the ways in which designers can be more proactive and effective?
Karan: I think just participating in the ecosystem that we have, as a designer is purely wonderful. because companies have not truly experienced what design can do for it. When I say companies, I’m talking about small local businesses in the MSME sector. Say a small manufacturing unit in an industrial area in your town, would not have possibly understood what graphic design is, and the impact it can have when there are rich visuals on his website. So it great to participate in designing for this ecosystem, because of the pace its growing at, and the insight we can bring in as designers. But there are also larger aspects that designers can take up. what I think is the ultimate challenge for any designer in India, is being a part of the elite decision making group which are elected by the people. having a say in how the city needs to be planned.
For example, when you look at traffic signals, the time for the green light is often not correlated to the distance of the road that you need to cross. Perhaps this was the decision of someone who thought this amount of time was enough, but they didn’t take into account physically disabled people, elders, someone with a broken leg…these are tiny problems that catch a designers attention everyday, but they can’t really participate in such channels, because currently there is no system for it.
The city of Los Angeles has a chief design officer, so perhaps that will come into India sometime soon. Change has already started with a few citizen driven initiatives here and there, and the leaders of these initiatives consider the red tape more of a constraint, than a problem. One of the most popular examples you would see in India is the Ugly Indian. The whole group is not really looking to enforce a law, but create change by playing with psychological minded of the local people to create and sustain a clean space.
Sushi: So you’re saying that design interventions need not necessarily go through the government, they don’t need a bill or seal, but it can happen by influencing the public since we live in a democracy.
Karan: yes and that is in some way design, where you use the red tape as a constraint and you still find a solution to what you are trying to achieve.
Sushi: Great point! DO you have any words for design students who want to pursue industrial design?
Karan: I would say if they are quite young – still at school- they need to start exploring as many physical objects as possible. maybe open up as many things as they can and learn to put it together again.
Sushi: That is the difficult part!
Karan: Also get their hands dirty and try to make as many things as possible, be it with lego, or clay or whatever they can get their hands on.
Sushi: Thank you so much for coming on our podcast – this has been really insightful! Where can our listeners find your work – online, offline, in a parallel dimension?
You can log on to our website smthn.in, and if they want to know more about us, they can contact us through the website. And thank you so much for having me on Design Lota as well!
Angie: Ah, I feel kind of a kinship with Karan! An engineer turned designer! Except he went from mechanical to industrial design and I found myself moving from Software engineering to Interface Design.
Sushi: Haha yes it’s nice to see a lot of your breed in design schools and design roles these days! It’s interesting how engineering and design fields go hand in hand and yet we think of them as two separate personality types
Angie: I think the combination can be quite harmonious, actually – a mixing of the how and why of a product. If nothing else, an engineering background might help a designer empathise with his engineering or developer counterparts.
Sushi: I agree that engineers and designers need to work together more, to be able to leverage each other’s’ skills better. Ultimately the goal of both people is a quality product with a great user experience.
Angie: Absolutely! Karan spoke about how they like to work on their own products in their downtime and keep that balance between product and services mindsets.
Sushi: I think that’s one of the aspects of successful entrepreneurship – to keep that flow of income coming in, while being able to pursue your passion projects.
Angie: And speaking of offering design services as a consultant – as Karan said – taking the time to work with the client to redefine the brief and set the context can really set your practice apart.
Sushi: And that’s not always easy – with clients who have a clear idea in their head (or think they do) and of course, their impossible deadlines.
Angie: Context really comes into play at various points in the process – so does getting constant feedback from the users and the client.
Sushi: Prototyping can be a good way to keep the feedback coming and make sure that the client is on the same page with regard the brief. Once they see it they might understand why it needs to be done a certain way, or why a certain feature may not make sense. Even we sometimes have those aha moments only once we’ve turned our ideas into 3D…I mean in the tactile sense.
Angie: This culture of prototyping needs to start early in our education system. That bravery to just put across an idea – making with our hands and actually feeling how something works or doesn’t work.
Sushi: I remember seeing an actual tactile data bank during my exchange program. The college library had an entire section where they cataloged various material samplers, so that design students could actually see and feel how they looked in real life, before choosing to use them in a project. I think this is something all art and design schools and companies can implement, especially with the constant introduction of new and innovative materials, with futuristic names, that we only get to see on the internet.
Angie: You mean like Vibranium?
Sushi: let’s not go down that bifrost at the moment
Angie: yeah let’s not! You also discussed the ‘smart’ products trend – how they end up being all about showcasing technology rather than solving real problems.
Sushi: I also feel that just being able to see that these technologies exist, no matter how poorly implemented, can give rise to new ideas and applications, which can be used to solve real problems.
Angie: yeah, so don’t hero-worship the trend but be aware of it’s potential and imagine what solutions can come out of it.
Sushi: And the ‘gaps’ that allow for design intervention are many, especially in our country. It’s nice to see a lot of startups taking on projects at the grass root level.
Angie: It’s helpful as designers to stay open to working in diverse domains or unlikely opportunities like small local businesses.
Sushi: When you look some of the recently successful startups, you realise that no idea is too small. And the possibilities with crowdfunding seem quite promising.
Angie: I like how crowdfunding can act as an idea validation and be a tool to get feedback from potential end users.
Sushi: By the way, the crowdfunding campaign for the Smthn bags has now ended. You can check them out and directly purchase on smthn.in, that’s SMTHN.in
Angie: Oh that’s cool, I have my eye on the grey one – Smthn elite!
Sushi: Hey Listeners! What are some cool crowdfunding campaigns that you’ve funded or been interested in?
Angie: What ‘smart’ products do you think we can expect to see next?
Sushi: Do you have your own version of a tactile library?
Angie: Tweet to us @designlota and tell us about it
Sushi: In our next episode, we’re talking street typography and personal projects!
Angie: Can’t wait!
Sushi: You can find references and the transcript for this episode on designlota.com
Angie: Until next time!